1831

been on parish registers thomas the martyr , and got my ancestors burial details , at the same church on the same day 28 people were buried , i could not believe it 19th december ,how could they possibly bury that many people in one day ?must have been some sort of epidemic around at the time

There was a cholera outbreak in the UK in 1831.It killed 31,000 people.

this village was wiped out around that time with the plague and dont forget FLU was a deadly decease in those days

I'd say it's more likely to be a pit disaster. If you notice the vast majority of the deaths are male and of working age. Very few are of children or the elderly which you would be expected to be most likely to die from disease.

There were 6 female teenagers and two others aged 24 and 26.
Oldest male 71 and youngest 10.
There was one pit disaster in the general area in May 1831 at Haydock in which 11 miners lost their lives.
Population of Up Holland at that time would be around 3000.

Haydock, Lancashire. May, 1831.

The victims of a disaster buried at St. Thomas’ Ashton-in-Makerfield. The Burial register states that they were ‘all killed by the explosion of inflammable air in a coal
pit.’ The victims were buried between the 18th and 24 th. May

Those who died were-
Mary Cunliffe aged 14 years.
James Cunliffe aged 12 years, collier.
Thomas Cunliffe aged 9 years, collier.
John Owen aged 13 years, collier.
Peter Litherland aged 12 years, collier.
John Litherland aged 9 years, collier
Willliam Litherland aged 9 years, collier.
Thomas Martlew aged 40 years, collier.
Thomas Owen aged 20 years, collier.
Edward Cunliffe aged 27 years, collier.

awww so young too.the pit disaster as stated was in may , the december date seems more likely an epidemic or as elizabeth said flu,which was a killer ,or gaffers comment cholera.

I think the fact that the deaths are generally of males, who would have been in their prime rules out illness. Also there would be large amounts of burials over a longer period and not just one day. Also the surrounding parishes show nothing unusual at the time. The logical reason would be a pit explosion or work disaster of some kind, but as Gaffer points out there is seemingly no record of one. It's sad but interesting, and more digging is needed. Definitely no pun intended.

section 8, you say there would be large amounts of burialsover a longer period and not just one day ,then what it says in the parish records is all a lie ?there is no, or was no pit explosion ,that as been collaborated .my ancestor was the 70 year old, he came from pemberton as did most of them, unfortunatly i cant get a death certificate for that time , but lots of my ancestors in later years died from flu,the peoplefrompemberton mostly miners worked at the blundelpits , ive gone through the list myself and there definatly was no pit explosion in any of the pits round that area ,with out any certificate to show cause of death , there is little digging can be done

Board of Health, 1831-1832

Fears of a cholera epidemic led to the creation of another consultative Board of Health in June 1831. Its minutes are in PC 1/101 and HO 31/17. A sub-committee of the Board prepared regulations to prevent the spread of the disease which were issued as Orders in Council and published in the London Gazette of 25 October 1831 (ZJ 1/189). The following month a new Central Board of Health replaced the consultative one. It sat at the Privy Council Office with an advisory committee of the Royal College of Physicians. Nearly 1200 local boards of health were created, constituted by Orders in Council, in addition to those formed on local initiative. Minutes of the Central Board are in PCI/105, with registers of correspondence and letter books in PC 1/93-100 and other miscellaneous papers and correspondence in PC 1/102-4, PC 1/106-14, PC 1/2260-2262, PC 1/4395 and MH 98/1. The Board was dissolved in December 1832 and the local boards disappeared as the epidemic receded. For a further eighteen months the Privy Council Office continued to deal with correspondence about cholera. Surviving records of the local boards should be sought in the appropriate local record office.

thanks gaffer ,worth investigating

..

"then what it says in the parish records is all a lie ?

Not sure what you mean by that, EC.

There were 22 burials at St Thomas the Martyr in the whole of Nov 1831, averaging slightly less than one per day, with varying ages including babies and infants. This trend roughly continues before and after the 28 burials on the 19th of Dec. The sequence of burials do not imply death by disease, but points to them all dying in one event.

After looking into the cholera outbreak in 1831 that Gaffer mentions, it seems it mainly occurred in Durham, and London. You would also think that if an epidemic occurred it would show up in surrounding parishes. St Thomas's in Ashton in Makerfield shows not one death recorded as caused by Cholera or Flu in October, November or December 1831.

It's most likely an undocumented pit accident or factory disaster. There is much digging to be done. It's a mystery ready to be solved.

section 8 . my question was how could they bury 28 peope on that date which is 19th december , surely if some where buried on the 20th it would have said this ,the date for all 28 people was 19th december . as you said its a mystery to be solved . if someone had been buried on the say 20th 21st 22d december , why would they state 19th december burial . if you dont understand that then i have no more to say on this subject

In 1831 there were 245 burials at St. Thomas the Martyr and 85 in the first quarter of 1832. Assuming everbody who died in Upholland at this terrible time was buried in the one church it represents a death rate of 8% in 1831 and 11% for the first quarter of 1832. That is the equivalent of 24,000 burials a year (1831 figure} or 8300 in three months (1832 figure) for the Wigan MBC area today. In the latter case 630 burials per week non stop for thirteen weeks or in the 1831 equivalent 450 burials per week non stop for a year.
It gives you some idea of the scale of the tragedy and why the disease was such a frightening prospect in those days of poor or non existent sanitation.

it sure was gaffer , non existent sanitation ,no wonder cholera was rampant ,i pity those chidren in somalia where this is widespread .thanks for all your info

EC "my question was how could they bury 28 peope on that date which is 19th december , surely if some where buried on the 20th it would have said this"

I'm still not sure what your getting at, EC. There are burials the day before on the 18th of Dec and after on the 20th of Dec. I've copied and pasted them below. Mass burials are usually associated with a single disaster.

Burial: 18 Dec 1831 St Thomas the Martyr, Upholland, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Walker -
Age: 68
Abode: Holland
Register: Burials 1825 - 1847, Page 165, Entry 1317
Source: LDS Film 1657546

Burial: 20 Dec 1831 St Thomas the Martyr, Upholland, Lancashire, England
Mary Anne Worthington -
Age: 14
Abode: Pemberton
Register: Burials 1825 - 1847, Page 169, Entry 1347
Source: LDS Film 1657546

Gaffer, I agree that the death rates in those days are ridiculously high, and disease almost a permanent resident. Saying that there is nothing unusual about the death rates in Upholland or the surrounding area in 1831/32 to suggest a specific epidemic, or to explain the 28 burials on the 19th of Dec.

St Thomas the Martyr Upholland Deaths:
Year/Deaths
1830-193
1831-244
1832-209
1833-199
1834-259

St Thomas Ashton in Makerfield Deaths:
Year/Deaths
1830-148
1831-180
1832-182
1833-198
1834-155

there was an epidemic in manchester which is a dam sight nearer than durham or london

A doctor john Snow worked with miners who had contracted the disease at Killingworth colliery and 8 years after the 1831 epidemic issued the following guidance to coal miners.
He stressed the necessity of scrupulously clean personal hygene. They should split their work into two shifts to avoiding taking food into the pit.
One can only imagine what the sanitary conditions were like below ground.

The Manchester epidemic was in 1832, the year after the 19th of December burials. The burial records of Upholland and surrounding area show no signs of a cholera epidemic in either 1831 or 1832. There are only two burials related to Cholera in Ashton in Makerfield, in the whole of 1832.

Why such a hostile attitude, EC. I've spent a few hours looking through the records, and am merely showing you what i have found. If your hell bent on thinking the 28 died of cholera or flu, despite nothing in the records, then feel free.

I haven got an hostile attitude, i ask aperfectly normal question and all you say is do not understand ,i too have spent hours and seen what you have seen .

Many Parish records do not give the cause of death, I have seen whole families wiped out in a matter of days so sad -

I am referring in this instance to the registers of Winwick St Oswald

EC "you say there would be large amounts of burialsover a longer period and not just one day ,then what it says in the parish records is all a lie ?"

EC "if someone had been buried on the say 20th 21st 22d december , why would they state 19th december burial ."

These are the that comments i didn't understand. I've still no idea what i could have said, or what you could have read to provoke such a comment.

EC "there was an epidemic in manchester which is a dam sight nearer than durham or london"

EC "if you dont understand that then i have no more to say on this subject"

These are what i found a little hostile. I apologise if this is the way you normally reply to people.

frances. if i were to go on the lds film at museum of life re death,would it give the man in question his childrens name as a witness?

Christine - I don't quite understand what you are asking a church record doesn't always give a lot of information it can just be the persons name and thier abode (sometimes this is just the town)it can occasionally give an address, some Churches appear to give more information that others

A death certificate has the personal details and the name of the informant.

If you like I could try to get some information for you

frances .it is peter moss who was buried 19th december 1831,i just thought , well there is no death certificates for that era, ive never been on a lds film , and just wondered what info comes up ,but as you say ,probally only name and abode ,im sorry if i am not coming across with my early question .peter was buried at thomas the martyr upholland ,71 years of age

You have probably seen this Christine - The LDS will have got the information from the Parish register so I don't think that there will be any more information there,

Burial: 19 Dec 1831 St Thomas the Martyr, Upholland, Lancashire, England
Peter Moss -
Age: 71
Abode: Orrell
Register: Burials 1825 - 1847, Page 165, Entry 1318
Source: LDS Film 1657555

Is it his children that you want to find

thankyou frances for replying at this hour ,yes his children , back to digging

.

Have you any more details - he was born 1760 - when and who did he marry - do you know

There is a marriage in 1784 at All Saints, Wigan

ecmdj

A couple of pointers re the 1831 period.

A doctor's certificate re death was not required until 1874 nor was the cause of death required on a death certificate until that date.
The British Medical Association wasn't formed until 1832, albeit under a different name.Up to that point doctor registration was more of an informal business.

frances,just going through all my records ,a lot of the info i have on my family tree was gleaned from my late mum ,only for her giving names i wouldnt have got so far , sometimes she was out with dates but i got there,there is that many peters, and thomases in this tree ,i will however get back to you , sadly my mum passed away last year 96,year old ,and a marvelous memory .and gaffer thankyou for your comment .section 8 if you got the impression i was being hostile , i apologise

Take a look on LOPC - there were quite a few burials in Dec 1831 at Wigan Parish Church - cause of death Measles, or fever. Taking the 'geographical closeness' of other churches - St John's Pem only start in 1832, St Aidens Billinge doesn't show cause of death, but there doesn't appear to be a leap in number dec 1831. St. Mary's Billinge was there but as it is RC the records aren't on LOPC..... just trying to see if there were any major outbreaks local to Upholland

It's ok EC, it's easy to get wires crossed and motives wrong online. Many think i'm patronising, when it's often just the way i type. Thankyou, that has cleared the air, so to speak.

I had a look into your Peter Moss last night. As Frances points out above, there is a marriage in 1784 between a Peter Moss and Jane, which seems to fit better than the other marriages on the LOPC.

This pair do appear to be having children in Dalton near Upholland, but also in Wigan. It's possible the difference of abode on the birth records, could just be down to them using differing church's for baptisms.

Baptisms: 7 Aug 1785 Douglas Chapel, Eccleston, Lancashire, England
Mary Moss - daughter of Peter Moss & Jane
Abode: Wigan
Notes: Contained in Eccleston register
Baptised by: Rev Thomas Walker Curate
Register: Baptisms 1782 - 1812, Page 30, Entry 9
Source: LDS Film 1526114

Baptisms: 23 Nov 1794 St Thomas the Martyr, Up Holland, Lancashire, England
John Moss - Son of Peter Moss & Jane
Abode: Dalton
Occupation: Labourer
Register: Baptisms 1789 - 1812, Page 18, Entry 15
Source: LDS Film 1657546

Other evidence for Jane being Peter Moss's wife is a death in 1835, abode also in Orrell, just like Peters.

Burial: 19 Oct 1835 St Thomas the Martyr, Upholland, Lancashire, England
Jane Moss -
Age: 82
Abode: Orrell
Register: Burials 1825 - 1847, Page 278, Entry 2219
Source: LDS Film 1657555

Also i found the John 1794 above, born in Dalton, but living in Orrell on 1851 census.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8860&iid=LANHO107_2200_2200-1148&fn=John&ln=Moss&st=r&ssrc=&pid=13197334

Do any of the moss names below ring a bell or fit into your tree?

Mary 1785
Thomas 1787
Jane 1792
John 1794

section 8. mary ,jane, thomas and john ,you wouldnt believe how many there are in the family tree,will get back as soon as ive sifted this lot ,thanks again ,

Hi Has anyone checked if there are any headstones? Know a lot of the ones in St Thomas Ashton in makerfield headstones state died of Flu & the ones that died in the Haydock pit disaster stated on headstones. Just a thought

Washy

I was in that graveyard yesterday trying to find the grave of William Houghton burial date 1876... not sure if he is my gt gt gt Gdad (2 William Houghtons - similar age / in same area ... trying to find headstone to see if any more family info)
It was my first visit - a lot of older stones appear to have been re-used as paving for paths and other areas - hence lettering is worn. I went Ad Hoc, I think I need to find out if there is any plot info held anywhere, and how to access it.

Hi Carol
Do you know there is a second grave yard for St Thomas? Or is that what Ad Hoc means?
Its down one of the side streets. My grandmother buried there.

Washy

Hi Washy - I was refering to Upholland. Sorry to get your hopes up! Ad Hoc = turning up on spec with no real plan - on the off chance I would find it. Should have known better

Thanks Carol, you learn something new everyday lol

What a fascinating mystery the 1831 burials are!
My two penn'orth is that I would guess at a one-off disaster, such as a pit accident, being responsible for most of them. Being all on the same day doesn't seem to support the view of some kind of epidemic.
It also seems that most of the burials are of people of an age that could have been working in the mines, even as young as 10, and none (out of the whole 28) are of babies or infants, which is unusual if you compare with any other group of this number of burials from other dates.
Has anyone tried asking on other forums, maybe history or genealogy ones, to see if there any suggestions?
I know that searching the usual coal mining history sources produces nothing around this time and place. Maybe it wasn't mining, but some other activity such as a quarry explosion or rockfall? What about newspapers of the time? Before the Observer, but were there any others around?

To go further, it might be useful to see the original registers, where there could be extra notes in the margin etc.
It would also enable a check to be made on the accuracy of the transcription which appears on Lancs OPC and comes from an LDS film. Mistakes can be made at any stage of the copying and digitisation of these records.
Another option is to check for surviving Bishop's Transcripts for this register (unless the LDS used BTs as their source) and see if they tally.
I suggest it's also possible that, at the end of the year, a cleric discovered some 'missing' burial records, and wrote them all up together in the register on the one day.

Or what if the 28 burials were 'transfers' from another graveyard that was being closed? (No date of death is given in these registers, so it can't be ruled out).
On reflection, I reckon that last option might be the best guess...what does anyone else think?

jackdog , your clerical assumption ,intrigues me for the simplereasonlast year i spokeon the telephone to one of the church wardens 2,of my ancestors they couldnt find , i knew they were buried there, museumof life parish records confirmed that , but not under MOSS, they had been transcribed as mass .. i was told last year records needed a good sort out and would get spring.im still waiting of this year before they could do anything .im still waiting .like section 8 says amystery waiting to be solved . iv written again to the church warden at thomas the martyr so heres hoping they reply .

bit of a long time coming, if you haven't found this out yet.
There was a mining disaster there where 28 people were killed.
onbe of my wifes ancestors was one of the victims and i spent quite a bit of time wondering the same questions until i found out this not very well know disaster.
I have emailed Ron the paper clippings i have and am sure he will post them.